Designer interviews, 1997

Both of these interviews were recorded during a Votoms event held at Sunrise Studio on November 14, 1997

Character Designer Norio Shioyama

It was a difficult character whose subtle nuances varied depending on my physical condition that day

Interviewer: What kind of orders did the director give you?

Shioyama: At first, it was about a man who has been hurt by the war, and has no family or friends. I think it was said that this would be a story about the rehabilitation of a boy whose character was distorted because he was raised as a soldier. In short, a slightly autistic boy shivering in the cockpit of a Scopedog. It was an unprecedented hero image.

At that time, the term “dark-rooted” was in vogue. Boys who were afraid of being called that by others were desperately playing the third person in the group. In order to be popular with girls, you had to be cheerful and make people laugh. I felt sorry for those boys. At first, I thought this would be a kind of rah-rah song for such children.

However, when the storyboards were completed and the story began, it turned out to be a hard world. There wasn’t room for softness, so he naturally became a strong Chirico. My first concept was a bit more fragile, a bit more tormented, and a bit more vulnerable. It was that image of a boy.

Interviewer: What is the difference between your first design and the current Chirico? Different hair style?

Shioyama: No, the hairstyle is not different. But if I had to say something about the hair style, until then, my image of the main character in an anime was that of a man with a bushy head of hair, waving in the wind. However, since he was a soldier, it was natural that his hair should be trimmed short. From that point on, I felt that I had a concrete grasp of what Chirico should be.

Unlike the first concept, Chirico had many subtle facial expressions, which was difficult. I know it was difficult for the other animation directors and animators. He was a difficult character for me to work with, since the nuances would vary slightly depending on my physical condition that day.

It was very difficult for me to make a normal facial expression. If you turn up the edges of his mouth even a little, it looks like he’s smiling. However, when Chirico smiles with his eyes, he looks cunning, like he’s hiding something. It was difficult to adjust the nuance. Also, when there was an expression in the eyes, Chirico would start to look inorganic and unlikable.

Interviewer: In the latter half of the TV series, Chirico had a gentler expression as well as a harsh one.

Shioyama: I think this was the result of rehabilitation. Or rather, the fact that he made friends and found a girlfriend. He doesn’t laugh much, but there are some shots where he smiles. Fans know them pretty well, but it’s hard for me to find one of him smiling. So, while there are a lot of subtle facial expressions, there is also a strength to them. And then there were times when he would smile on purpose to fool Wiseman.

At first, Fyana was designed to look like a bandit chieftain

Interviewer: How about Fyana?

Shioyama: Fyana was also a character in my own hands, so it was nothing new. In the beginning, she was designed to look like a bandit chieftain. It wasn’t really a design with physicality, more like an evil queen with a cigarette in her hand. In the end, we decided to go with a slightly more mature design in the picaresque (rough but charismatic) vein.

The hardest part was to make her look not like a normal girl, but rather a replicant, or an artificial human. Also, Director Takahashi doesn’t much like so-called “beautiful chara,” so I was asked to create something more unique than just a second-tier boy or a beautiful girl. For example, we thought a mysterious, beautiful girl would appear at the start, so I drew a so-called “beautiful girl,” but that didn’t seem to be a good idea.

Also, in the scene where she first appears in the jijirium capsule, she would be sleeping with a bald head, so I wondered how to depict that on a beautiful girl. But as result, the impact of that first encounter in Episode 1 was strong, and the best foreshadowing of their destiny. It was a memorable scene. When he stared at her with his eyes wide open, Chirico was really astonished.

The surprise wasn’t simply that he saw something scary, he felt a sense of fear for the fate that was to come. It’s just my opinion, but I think it’s better that she had that bald head. If she had been a normal beautiful girl with long hair, she probably wouldn’t have had such an impact.

Interviewer: What do you think is the key point of Fyana’s design?

Shioyama: I think it’s probably the facial expression. If she smiled with that face, she would be a warm and homey daughter. If you design with that kind of mood in mind, the finished picture will naturally look like that.

Rather than trying to create a character-like image, I think it’s important to consider the mood when we draw. When you look at the design drawing like this, you can see the line of sight is not quite focused. In fact, the eyes are open, but they’re not looking at anything. Many of her expressions look as if she’s thinking about something in her mind. It’s good to draw with that kind of mood.

Therefore, the pictures that designers or animators draw are inevitably the pictures they like. It isn’t possible to draw something very different. However, Votoms is a work that doesn’t feature many girls. The only other one was Coconna, so it was easy. That’s why I prefer Coconna. At the time, we were just beginning to talk about the “chaser girl.” I designed her with a little of that image in mind.

I wanted to include more animals

Interviewer: What character do you particularly like?

Shioyama: Well, I designed various characters in Votoms, but I don’t have a particular favorite. I like them all. Vanilla and Coconna were a breath of fresh air. I was relieved to be able to play with them a little. I wanted to make Gotho a little more expressive, but I couldn’t spend that much energy on a supporting character.

I base my characters on movie actors and real people, such as politicians. That way, I can draw hundreds of them. I don’t have much trouble creating a character.

Interviewer: You also often created strange small animals as supporting characters.

Shioyama: It’s difficult to introduce small animals. If you don’t make them move properly, they just look weird and floaty. Besides, when animals appear in a live-action film, they usually eat the actors. Even in an anime, when something like this appears, everyone is distracted by it. So if you don’t do it right, it often becomes detrimental.

I wanted to include more animals, but Director Takahashi was the one who stopped me. I think it was at the request of the staff. The Eunoi (an insect that appears in episode 7), was named after [Design Supervisor] Koichi Inoue, right? I did that as fan service. The Ramukuo (a bird that appears in episode 21) was named after Tomoki Okumura, who was working in production. I sometimes played around with things like that.

[Translator’s note: the names resulted from reversing the syllables of staff members’ names.]

I was deeply impressed by the fact that Chirico is immortal

Interviewer: What scene had a particularly strong impression on you?

Shioyama: I recently rewatched the first episode. I’ve seen it many times, but I can’t take my eyes off the scene where Chirico and Fyana meet for the first time. I think that scene symbolizes the world of Votoms and the two of them. They’ll probably fall in love and encounter various things in the future. It’s a scene of a fateful encounter.

Another one is at the end, when Lu Shako is holding a sword or something, and the two are looking at each other. They’re trying to stop Chirico from reaching Wiseman. Chirico has a gun and tells them, “Stay back.” He actually shoots Shako, first in the leg, then in the shoulder. Fyana is watching, and since Chirico intentionally misses the vital points, she knows his true intentions. Chirico is a pro, so he wouldn’t miss. To us, it looks as if Chirico really meant to shoot the man who was his friend.

It was an impressive scene that could be interpreted as a lonely Chirico having a friend he could trust.

Interviewer: What was the most memorable scene in an OVA?

Shioyama: Roots of Ambition was my favorite work. It has some shocking scenes. Gregor is a character that I surprisingly like, even though he teams up with Baiman and Muza to chase after Chirico and shoot him without hesitation. They have him cold, but the machine gun goes out of control and they can’t kill him.

If it was a normal movie, Gregor would have paused and said something like, “You bastard.” But here they don’t want to bother with it anymore, so they draw and immediately fire a shot without pause. However, the scene where the bullet flies through the air is in slow motion, and it misses. That scene left a strong impression on me.

I think that even though Chirico himself is immortal in the story, he wouldn’t feel like a human being unless he died. Then when he strangles Pailsen, he’s shot at point blank range and dies. I was convinced that he was still a human being. After that, someone we thought was dead comes back to life. I was deeply impressed that Chirico was still immortal.

The Chirico in Shining Heresy is more recent, 32 years later

Interviewer: What was the hardest part of Shining Heresy?

Shioyama: I’d wanted to have a female warrior called a Nextant from the start, and when I heard that we would do that, I was very happy to work on it. However, it was difficult to get an OK the first time out. At first, she was muscular and Amazon-like, but with a girlish face. It turned out differently in the end, and I think that was fine. However, later I wished I could have expressed a little more female charm or sex appeal.

Interviewer: Did you have a female version of Chirico in mind when you designed the Nextant?

Shioyama: No, that was the problem. However, the character was based on Chirico, so I couldn’t help it. I was very careful, but she ended up looking like him because her hair style was like his. But I think that was a good thing in some ways.

The concept was of a lonely warrior who was used by her father, so I didn’t want to make her eyes shine too brightly. I couldn’t make her a character with a cute nose. She couldn’t help but end up with a face like hers.

Interviewer: What was the idea behind having her wear a wig?

Shioyama: I think it was Director Imanishi’s idea. I was against the wig at first, but later, when I heard the explanation, I was convinced. When she received her title as a Martial warrior, wearing a wig was a costume for such a ceremony. If she had worn her hair as it was, the mood wouldn’t have been the same. I think it’s beautiful. It has the feel of a beautiful girl.

Interviewer: Chirico and Fyana’s designs in the OVA also changed a little.

Shioyama: Because the times went back and forth. For example, Roots of Ambition was before the TV series. I had to portray him as younger. The Chirico in Shining Heresy is more recent, 32 years later. I had to portray him as a grown man, so he grew beard stubble. I also drew his face in a more mature way.

Interviewer: The biggest change in Shining Heresy from the previous work is Rochina.

Shioyama: Rochina is a poor person, and he didn’t have a good time in the main story. He hasn’t appeared in a long time, and now he’s an old man. He is voiced by Banjo Ginga again, and he’s generally a greasy, ambitious man. I had a hard time wondering how much to do with him. It wasn’t just about getting wrinkles when he gets old.

After a while, I want to do it again

Interviewer: Did Votoms have any impact on your subsequent work?

Shioyama: I still often draw Chirico when I have do illustrations. For example, when I think about what to draw for next year’s calendar, I often draw Chirico. I like drawing Chirico and Fyana, after all. It’s been more than ten years, but I’ve been involved with this work for all that time. I’ve been in animation for 30 years now. That makes it a significant work for me.

Interviewer: If you were to make a sequel to Votoms in the future, what would you like to do?

Shioyama: I’m sure when you ask everyone that question, they’ll all groan the same way. It’s a strange thing, but after doing something like this for so long, it’s kind of like you’ve had enough. But after a while, I’ll want to do it again.

If I were to do it, I’d like to make Chirico more active. Make him a madman, or something like that. I’d like to create a story in which Chirico himself plays a major role. For example, a fight to save refugees from someplace where rescue is absolutely impossible. I’d like to have a picture of Chirico holding a refugee boy or girl in his arms, something that would allow me to create such a poster.

Chirico’s secret has been made public, and since his image has been firmly established, I think it would be good to have him personally pull various stories together.

Interviewer: Thank you very much for your time today.

See a list of Norio Shioyama’s credits at Anime News Network here




Mecha Designer Kunio Okawara

I think size was very close to the world Mr. Takahashi wanted to create

Interviewer: When did you start working on the design of Votoms? It’s a well-known story that since Dougram couldn’t actually do the famous sitting pose that appears in the first episode, you started by trying to make a design that could.

Okawara: When I looked at the first episode of Dougram, I thought it was unfortunate that it couldn’t get into that sitting pose without modification, so I started working on it with that gap in mind. It was something I worked on little by little, not long afterward. There was no definite beginning. I just wanted to make something like that in my own way.

Rather than modifying a Dougram model kit, I made it out of wood. I worked backward from an action figure, but I don’t remember if it was a Microman or whatever. I thought it would be better to see the pilot when I made the diorama. At first, the cockpit was all open with no cover, like the Machine Trooper, and a human being was riding in it.

Interviewer: Producer Toru Hasegawa told me that at the first planning meeting for Votoms, you showed them two mockups. One was completely open, and the other had a windshield?

Okawara: I think one was sort of open, but I don’t remember for sure. I do remember that the color of the completely open one was moss green.

Interviewer: Did you have a special feeling about the model with the open cockpit?

Okawara: I wasn’t thinking about the world of the story, I made it my own way for a diorama. In my case, I start making things before designing them. I don’t do the design first unless I get paid for it. (Laughs)

Interviewer: So, making wooden models was like a hobby for you?

Okawara: I like to make things like models, so I naturally make them before drawing. I draw for balance, but otherwise I just start building without drawing a rough sketch. It’s more fun to think about what to attach where while building it.

For example, in the case of Votoms, I was making a model when I was inspired to create the five-part waist armor. A sitting pose wouldn’t have been possible if it was covered with armor like Dougram, but this inspiration made Votoms a design that could sit down. Dougram couldn’t really do it, but it was cheated in the anime. A technically-advanced builder could have modified it, but in general, that modification was not possible.

We’d never had split armor on the hero side before. Modelers had no choice but to cut it apart on Gundam and others. Votoms was designed to allow you to pose to a certain degree from the time you bought it. We incorporated the split armor into the design from the beginning.

I’ve done a lot of robot stuff, but it took me a long time to arrive at the split armor. When you think about it now, it’s natural in hindsight. In fact, it’s best to go without waist armor like in Macross.

The hooks on the shoulders were influenced by the military trucks and other things I saw as a child. I felt like putting it on without being self-conscious.

Interviewer: The scene where the helicopter is “fishing” for the hooks is quite impressive.

Okawara: But that was something I came up with later. I originally added it for maintenance purposes, so I didn’t really think about the logic behind it. I just thought about what would give the impression of militarism, and designed it that way.

This one (pointing to the Dual Model) is so well done that it’s visually obvious. I was making it by myself at that time. I was setting up my own concepts, saying, “This is a slot for maintenance,” without regard to the work.

Interviewer: What other concepts influenced your design?

Okawara: Until then, it was difficult to climb into robots of this size. We had to put a foot here, then put it here, and then here to climb up. This is something else that’s been incorporated into the design. It was still difficult, so we decided on the “downform” function.

For the roller dash, Mr. Takahashi said that it would be too slow and cumbersome if it could only walk, so we decided to make it run. The tires were added at his request.

I think this is a work that makes the most meaningful use of what is available

Interviewer: What were some of the design challenges you faced and what points did you keep in mind?

Okawara: For Votoms, I just output what I had inside me and it defined the whole world, so I didn’t have had any trouble. There were no particularly difficult motifs, I just output what I’d seen and heard since I was born.

When I was making Votoms, I wanted to try this and that, and it was the kind of robot project I wanted to do. If I had to do as much as I do now, I would’ve had to think more about it. At that time, there were no other competing robots, so I could do whatever I wanted, and it was new.

Interviewer: What about the mechanics of the roller dash and arm punch?

Okawara: The memorable things in that area weren’t my ideas. The director wanted something like that for the production. If they wanted a function, we would just add it. (Laughs)

In my case, I’m not obsessed with what has to be done. If it’s something that makes the work more interesting, I’ll incorporate it as much as possible. The famous “downform pose” wasn’t my idea, but mainly Norio Shioyama’s, and the people at Takara. I was too tired. (Laughs)

Interviewer: Mr. Inoue said that he asked to raise the backpack so it wouldn’t get stuck in the “downform” pose.

Okawara: He’s younger than me, and this was his second work after Dougram. I guess he remembers those days well. So what he says is probably more true. (Laughs) I’ve created about thirty lineups since then, so I don’t remember all the details.

Interviewer: What ideas of yours ended up in the main story?

Okawara: I didn’t decide on the color or the names. I think everything was decided through Mr. Inoue. I had faith in the excellent staff to make the best use of the material.

Interviewer: What was your involvement in the OVA Shining Heresy?

Okawara: That was Yutaka Izubuchi’s design work, and I just rewrote it. While rewriting, I think anything is possible. (Laughs) In fact, during the main TV series, I wanted to create a new AT with a little more character and personality. Almost all the ATs that had previously been rejected appeared as time went on. So the fun I wanted to have by doing it in the main story was cut off. (Laughs)

Normally, as a story progresses I’ll think, “Oh, it’ll be interesting to see where this goes,” and I get excited about putting something in. However, since orders came down to work from previous roughs, it was impossible to create a completely new AT. Therefore, I think this is a work that made the best use of what was available.

Interviewer: So, was it an easy job?

Okawara: I guess you could say so. Besides, it was my favorite kind of mecha. I don’t have a good sense of design, so I can’t compete unless it’s a military type.

Interviewer: But the AT is a mecha that shows off its military-like weaponry very well.

Okawara: I was born right after the end of the war, so there were things around me that seemed like real weapons. I think I learned to express such things without even knowing it.

I’m the only one working on this mecha world, so if I can directly output what I have in mind, it will naturally come together in the end

Interviewer: Did you draw the helicopters and spaceships to order?

Okawara: I drew the spaceships as I saw fit, and helicopters and the like were created based on Mr. Shioyama’s image roughs. I followed the director’s order to create this world. I drew them as they were. For a rough sketch, I drew it while thinking this is what the world of Votoms would look like. Some of them were used as is.

Interviewer: Did you solidify the image concept of this world of mecha?

Okawara: I’m the only one working on this mecha world, so if I can directly output what I have in mind, it will naturally come together in the end. I have never consciously had a design concept. The only other opinions came from those on the production.

Interviewer: Usually when you think of a space battleship, you think of something shaped like a ship with turrets, like in Space Battleship Yamato. The battleships in Votoms are unique.

Okawara: I think the director gave me a rough idea for that. If I had done it properly, I wouldn’t have been able to create that kind of design. But the image of Yamato was very strong, and I didn’t want to use the same type. At that time, Yamato was at its peak. If I did it the same way, it would probably be the most straightforward method for the viewer.

I’m not a military maniac, but this work has a sense of militarism. I wanted to unify it with a rugged, steel-plated feeling. Balarant has a more curved design than Gilgameth. They are roughly divided into two categories. Balarant looks a little more difficult to make out of sheet metal.

Interviewer: The Scopedog is sheet metal, and the Fatty has the image of casting.

Okawara: Those are castings. The material is the same, it’s just not welded together. I think about mecha that gets hammered together, even thought that’s a bit wasteful. I like steel plates, so I don’t think too much about new materials or ceramics. I decided to use steel for everything. (Laughs)

Interviewer: The atmosphere of rusted steel, oil, and the smell of smoke is very suitable for the world of Votoms, isn’t it?

Okawara: The director loves that stuff. He’s a few years older than me, and he’s seen a lot of that kind of thing.

Interviewer: Do your influences differ from Director Takahashi’s?

Okawara: No, I don’t think so. We’re not that far apart in age, so I don’t think what we see and hear is very different. We’re able to reach consensus quickly. If Director Takahashi had worked with someone else, I think it would have been a different work. All the staff members are of the same era, including Mr. Shioyama.

Interviewer: What was your impression of Mr. Shioyama’s rough sketches when you cleaned them up?

Okawara: Mr. Shioyama probably drew the rough image of the first episode. Episode 1 has the image of a rough, postwar, Battling world. I’m of a generation that began to see more and more hope for the future, so I don’t know as much about that kind of atmosphere. Therefore, I think Mr. Takahashi and Mr. Shioyama know more about the [postwar Japan] black market and that sort of thing. When I saw Mr. Shioyama’s image roughs, I had that feeling.

Interviewer: Is he also steeped in steel plating?

Okawara: We all grew up in the age of steel plates. Plastic is a material that came out after we grew up. Therefore, steel plating is ingrained in us. Well, there was plastic, but it wasn’t as abundant as it is now. In the old days, we used to make only solid models, and our generation made things out of wood all the time. Even toys were mostly tin.

But nowadays, people are hesitant to create designs with a metallic steel plate feel. After all, that was a time when we used to call it “TV manga” [prior to “anime”]. There’s a big difference between then and the time when “animation” was commonly used. When it came to be understood as “animation,” some said there was no room for eccentric design, but I’m not so sure.

In the old days, anything was possible since it was just TV manga. Votoms was right at the borderline of that kind of thing, and we were free to do whatever we wanted. It was a time when you could just open up and say, “As long as it’s interesting to look at, that’s all that matters.”

I’ve done enough with Votoms, so I’d like to do something different now that I’m getting older

Interviewer: What is the position and influence of Votoms in your work?

Okawara: That was the only job I could do without killing myself. It hasn’t been like that since then. Many people take things in a different direction than I want. I think it was a great opportunity for me to express what I have inside without any hardship. It’s a special work for me. So far, there’s no other work that I have been able to do so freely.

Interviewer: Would you like to participate in a sequel to Votoms in the future?

Okawara: Well… I’ve done enough with Votoms. I’d like to do a different work now that I’m getting older. I feel that it’s more attractive to create a new concept with a different work. It’s been 15 years since then, so I want to do something different.

Interviewer: What kind of new works would you like to do?

Okawara: Right now… there’s a work that I might be able to do, but I can’t tell you because it’s not for this company (Sunrise). I’d also like to try game work. After all, even if I work on a game now, it’s based on Votoms or something else from Sunrise. I’d like to produce something entirely for a game.

Interviewer: What kind of design would you do for a game?

Okawara: I’m not sure yet. In my case, I have to decide what kind of world I want to create and look for the design that blends best with it. I don’t have a specific mecha in mind. I can’t tell you what kind of world I want to create because then I’d be doing it for free, and business is at stake. (Laughs)

Interviewer: Finally, please give a message to the fans of Votoms.

Okawara: It would be better not to do another Votoms. I think it would be a pity if we ended up making something different from what people think about so much. Having said that, when it comes to the actual work, I’m confident that I’d do it in such a way as to not destroy the image. However, I’m concerned about whether or not I can do something that looks like a steel plate now. Over the past 15 years, I have adapted a little to the times.

Interviewer: What kind of images do you use to design mecha these days?

Okawara: There are orders to make it look like steel plates, but if I do it normally, it will still end up as FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic). Inevitably, welding is disappearing. In the past, putting screws in was a simple and easy way to make it look like mecha. These days, I feel that it is indeed better to drive in screws, it should just be a screw with a different taste. Young designers today are very good at such points. It may be because what they’ve seen and heard is quite different.

Interviewer: It’s easy to recognize your mecha designs by their silhouette, isn’t it?

Okawara: That’s because my designs are often strange. But still, all the young designers are good at drawing and have good sense. The younger designers are in their 20s, but I’m 50 years old, and 30 years makes a difference.

Interviewer: Thank you very much for your time today.

See a list of Kunio Okawara’s credits at Anime News Network here


Back to the Hub


This entry was posted in Uncategorized

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *